Vision Council part 2

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Table of Contents

The Process for finding a site
MINI-MANUAL of COUNCIL
FOCALIZER MINI MANUAL
“Counsel” versus “Council”

Council Process
Visionless Clown Show consenseless avoided

Vision Council – part 2

If a group of people have agreed to form a circle and peacefully pass a feather around respectfully, listening to each person equally, and someone disrupts this process, what can we do?

There are half a dozen people who have a long history of disrupting our family. What should we do to preserve the precious time we share? I have been to 10 of the last 15 vision councils and thanksgiving councils. I have been involved in 4 of the last 15 scout parties, and I have been among the first 100 people to arrive at 10 of the last 15 gatherings. I have been attending gatherings for 25 years.

I currently maintain the California Lightline (916)747-6269.

Should less than half a dozen people be allowed to ruin it for everyone?

sinnerG wrote:

> If a group of people have agreed to form a circle and peacefully pass a feather around respectfully, listening to each person equally, and someone disrupts this process, what can we do?

could you please explain disrupts?

chuck b:-)

sinnerG wrote:

> If a group of people have agreed to form a circle and peacefully pass a feather around respectfully, listening to each person equally, and someone disrupts this process, what can we do?

Usually calling for focus and respect for the feather and the speaker with the feather works wonders

> There are half a dozen people who have a long history of disrupting our family. What should we do to preserve the precious time we share?

Teach them..... if they are unwilling to learn and respect Phamily then they should be ignored until they learn to play nice with others

> I have been to 10 of the last 15 vision councils and thanksgiving councils.

Wow, I have been to Spring Clown Show for every Gathering I have attended since 1987 (that includes 88, 91 (was there but did not make council in 92), 94, 95, 97, 98, 2000, 01, 02, 03

Made Vision Council in 91, 95, 98, 2000, 01 and about an hour in 02

> I have been involved in 4 of the last 15 scout parties,

Only 2 for me

> and I have been among the first 100 people to arrive at 10 of the last 15 gatherings.

Wow, so at some point we should have met becuz I try to be at least one of the first 100 on site

> I have been attending gatherings for 25 years.

You got me beat by a year

> I currently maintain the California Lightline (916)747-6269.

thanx for doing this

> Should less than half a dozen people be allowed to ruin it for everyone?

Nope, sad thing is that the one person that I can think of that seems to want HIS agenda pushed on the Phamily is from your state..... which is why I can not and will not ever consent to a gathering in California..... now should this person drop HIS ego at the front gate and enter council with an open heart and mind I might think about such lending my voice to such a consensus

Good Morning,
Eliyahu Simchah

sinnerG wrote:

> If a group of people have agreed to form a circle and peacefully pass a feather around respectfully, listening to each person equally, and someone disrupts this process, what can we do?

I figured I had enough gray in my beard to sit in on the elders Circle in Oregon a few years back, so I did. Two circles formed, the inner composed of elders and the outer made up of younger onlookers who would not be taking part but who were most welcome to observe in silence. Hands were held in Peace, Auras were washed in smudge of Sacred Sage Smoke, three gloriously harmonic “OM”s were chanted, and we all sat down to counsel.

Just then a dude walked up to join the outer Circle, dogged closely by Riffraff who was saying, “I’m blocking consensus on this brother sitting in this council!” and both rings of the elders Circle spontaneously intoned: “OM!” The Force of that “OM!” picked Riffraff up in the air and moved him back three feet! Amazing what a little Love can do. [Both Riffraff and the dude he was dogging wound up peaceably in the outer Circle.]

The voice of dissent that is rooted in self interest whines. I’m not speaking metaphorically, you can actually hear the whining. My mind’s ear hears the same whine when I get sucked into reading trolls on AGR, it’s the same noise, a static trying to block the Signal. So, maybe a sign next to the entrance to Vision Council that reads, “NO WHINING!” and a prayer to that effect might help?

If it don’t work try sumpthin else. [Science in a nut shell.]

Loving Light,
Sanity

one of us wrote:

> could you please explain disrupts?

Unenlightened self interest, a.k.a., whining.

sinnerG wrote:

> If a group of people have agreed to form a circle and peacefully pass a feather around respectfully, listening to each person equally, and someone disrupts this process, what can we do?

A facilitator may be chosen, just for that particular time and that particular group. The task of the facilitator is understood to be “authorized” to require disruptive individuals to leave the group. Duct tape ready at hand for obstinate individuals I suppose.

gaia

one of us wrote:

> could you please explain disrupts?

Disrupts: Talking longer than anyone else consistently. Becoming irate or irrational over unimportant details. Ignoring who has the feather. etc. etc.

(snip)

from gaia, who no longer attends the councils: )

rainbow1 wrote:

> A facilitator may be chosen, just for that particular time and that particular group. The task of the facilitator is understood to be “authorized” to require disruptive individuals to leave the group. Duct tape ready at hand for obstinate individuals I suppose.

Gee, you really wanna start a war don’t-cha?

Sanity

sinnerG wrote:

> There are half a dozen people who have a long history of disrupting our family. What should we do to preserve the precious time we share?

Each year, the same individuals are disrespectful of the council process.

I would like to suggest some way of enacting a shanta sena removal of of anyone who is continually disruptive of the process. This year, a young brother “rapped” his vision - his rap in my judgement was sincere!

2 of these “brothers” (seasoned veterans of the gathering) verbally got on his case, abusing the council feather by doing so, and cried “showmanship” and “do you have any CD’s to hawk?” I was disgusted at “elders” being so closed to the younger form of expression. (I had heard that,, before my arrival, an actual physical fight broke out - too sad! - I never thaught I would be defending Barry S, but I would on this one).

My point is this: this kind of abuse for the council process, if repeated, is unacceptable. In the extreme it is certainly a shanta sena situation, in which the offenders need to be removed from the council process!

Other than that, this year’s gathering was, in my opinion, right up there with the top, snow and all - Weeeeeeee Loooooove Yoooouuu!

RiS

Love Everyone Unconditionally
including Yo’self!

rainbow1 wrote:

> Disrupts: Talking longer than anyone else consistently. Becoming irate or irrational over unimportant details. Ignoring who has the feather. etc. etc.

i think that is where the facilitators could and should come into play. but if they will not, or don’t stop their agro ( i hope i am using this term correctly ) actions, what than?

chuck b:-) (who would like to attend some councils)

californ...@hotmail.com (sinnerG) wrote in message news:...

> If a group of people have agreed to form a circle and peacefully pass a feather around respectfully, listening to each person equally, and someone disrupts this process, what can we do?

I would suggest by trying to understand what the purpose for “council process” is in the first place.

> There are half a dozen people who have a long history of disrupting our family. What should we do to preserve the precious time we share?

Understand what the purpose for “council process” is in the first place.

> I have been to 10 of the last 15 vision councils and thanksgiving councils. I have been involved in 4 of the last 15 scout parties, and I have been among the first 100 people to arrive at 10 of the last 15 gatherings. I have been attending gatherings for 25 years.

Well then, don’t you think it’s time to... start learning what the purpose for “council process” is in the first place?

> I currently maintain the California Lightline (916)747-6269.

I won’t touch that comment no matter HOW tempting it is … :-)

> Should less than half a dozen people be allowed to ruin it for everyone?

Should several hundred people be allowed to ruin it for thousands?

Is there some magic number that validates some individuals taking away the rights of other individuals?

one of us wrote:

> i think that is where the facilitators could and should come into play. but if they will not, or don’t stop their agro ( i hope i am using this term correctly ) actions, what than?

Duct tape. Ohm’s. Whatever it takes. Break the circle and form it elsewhere.

The pressure of the entire group should be sufficient, however.

gaia

In article <ab0512d5.03071...@posting.google.com>, sinnerG says...

> If a group of people have agreed to form a circle and peacefully pass a feather around respectfully, listening to each person equally, and someone disrupts this process, what can we do?

All we lack are facilitators for these kindsa problems. Ideally 4, one at each of the directions, 2 male & 2 female since it’s a Rainbow Council.

-woodstock-

Woodstock wrote:

> All we lack are facilitators for these kindsa problems. Ideally 4, one at each of the directions, 2 male & 2 female since it’s a Rainbow Council.

how and what would the facilitators do that isn’t done now to cancel or mitigate the disruption?

chuck b:-)

one of us wrote:

> how and what would the facilitators do that isn’t done now to cancel or mitigate the disruption?

ps... http://www.reclaiming.org/about/consensus/invert.html

> ps... http://www.reclaiming.org/about/consensus/invert.html

Thanx for the link, I printed it out.

Essential elements for consensus work: (from the link but mostly in my own words)

Responsibility - block only for serious principled objections. (i.e. is my objection real, valid and basic to the decision at hand or a personal ego trip)

Respect - another word for love.

cooperation - look for the win/win soloution.

creative conflict - don’t avoid conflict, seemingly irreconcilable differences can be resolved if people speak their feelings honestly and genuinely try to understand all positions including their own better.

metta (lovingkindness) .........................

Stella wrote:

> Thanx for the link, I printed it out.

here is another link with more info to check out:

http://www.consensus.net/

one of us <buss...@skat.net< wrote in message news:<3F3BA09F...@skat.net>...

Stella wrote:

> Thanx for the link, I printed it out.
> creative conflict - don’t avoid conflict, seemingly irreconcilable differences can be resolved if people speak their feelings honestly and genuinely try to understand all positions including their own better.

The avoidance of conflict can wreck meetings. People sometimes are afraid to differ from the majority.

The first link is from a Quaker source. A Quaker Meeting has a clerk, a person with the responsibility to help guide the meeting. There is usually one Clerk, sometimes co-clerks sharing the work. In our intermountain area usually the term for a clerk is one year. Often a recording clerk will become clerk. There are two basic meetings: meeting for worship and meeting for worship for business - usually called business meeting. A monthly meeting has business meeting once a month. That is where everything that goes on gets decided.

this is from http://www.quaker.org/fwcc/EMES/booklet.html#2

“The aim of a meeting for business is to seek the will of God. It is not a matter of bowing to the will of the majority, as Friends do not vote. It is an exercise of listening to God through what each person says. The Clerk has prepared an agenda and conducts the meeting, often with the help of an Assistant Clerk. The Clerk discerns ‘the sense of the meeting’. If the Clerk feels that an item has been thoroughly considered, he or she drafts and offers a ‘minute’ to the meeting. This will encapsulate what has gone before and record any decision that has been arrived at. The minute must receive the assent, spoken or tacit, of the meeting. If the Clerk is not able to discern a clear sense of the meeting, no decision will be taken, and no minute will be made except to record that the meeting is not ready to proceed.”

The problem with this type of way of running things is it takes a lot of work, both from the clerks and from members of meeting. There is no one else around, there is no us and them, no priest, bishop, or pope to tell anyone what to do.

patfromlogan wrote:

> The first link is from a Quaker source. A Quaker Meeting has a clerk, a person with the responsibility to help guide the meeting.

how is this person given this responsibility?

i believe woodstock has been “lobbying” for facilitators to serve in that type of function. how these are accepted or their function defined is not clear to me as yet.

> There is usually one Clerk, sometimes co-clerks sharing the work. In our recording clerk will become clerk. There are two basic meetings: meeting for worship and meeting for worship for business - usually called business meeting. A monthly meeting has business meeting once a month. That is where everything that goes on gets decided.

as was mentioned in another thread about vision council, the proximity of the individuals, close or far away, might make a difference. the closer folks live the easier it is to “practice” consensus decision making. in my experience it take some time and practice for folks to work well together, especially when working with consensus. trust is the single most important factor, imho.

chuck b:-)

In article <3F3C2CD3...@skat.net>, one of us says...

> i believe woodstock has been “lobbying” for facilitators to serve in that type of function. how these are accepted or their function defined is not clear to me as yet.

Lobbying- is that what I’m doing? I really don’t think in those terms. It’s a shame that many folks think VC in terms of the like, voting, democratic, etc. which translates into mimicking the system of the gummint. The function of facilitators as I’ve said here and there over the last coupla years is that they preserve the integrity of the circle. For example, once Vision has begun, and since the feathers are passed to the left, anyone who walks up to the circle is greeted by one of the facilitators. One facilitator won’t do. 4 facilitators- one at each of the 4 directions outside the circle 2 male/2 female for balance.

It is explained that Vision Council has already begun, and that they could sit outside the circle and asked to respect VC in being silent and not creating distractions etc. and that if they wished to speak or simply join the VC they would need to sit to the immediate right of the person then holding the feather so that it would have to go all the way around before they spoke, and that the first time it came to them they would show respect for the feathers, and the VC since each participant had already passed the feather in silence once. They could be courtious to the newbie/late commer and show them where to sit.

When folks have the urge to cross talk, i.e. speaking out of turn while the feather holder is speaking, they can remind them and the rest of circle by saying “respect the feather brother/sister” or when someone is obviously spun and going off on unending tangents or otherwise carrying on in jibberish, or maybe not speaking loud enough for folks to hear, the serve as reminders. This has been done by some of the experienced Vision Council participants, but others want to pipe in, and often results in wasted time and arguments- it really isn’t a fair way, and I personally don’t like being both participant and facilitator because people say things... you know what I mean. There’s more, but I am shuting down this pewter cause another monsoon storm is coming right now- later.

-woodstock-

Woodstock wrote:

> Lobbying- is that what I’m doing? I really don’t think in those terms.

i put the quotes around “lobbying” cause i couldn’t think of another way to put it and get my idea across, though it isn’t quite what i meant and i was certain you would react as you did but you got the idea anyway. and yes it is lobbying but without the negative connotations. bringing forward ideas and presenting them so hopefully others can understand and just maybe add to or strengthen the ideal being sought. more later...

chuck b:-)

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OK, from what is being said tht Visionless Clown Show has not so much reached anything close to a consensus but has opted to continue using the 2003 Michigan consensus and the region for the 2004 event will be California, Nevada and Utah...... with thanxtaking Clown Show focusing on California.

I personally do not recognize this council consensus and refuse to respect it..... I am calling on many to ignore it and come up with a consensus outside of this mock council process.

Mid Atlantic region seems to calling the Phamily...... while the west (mainly California) with all it’s ego trippers seems to be calling the pro-permit group and supporters there

Good Morning,
Eliyahu Simchah

Eliyahu Simchah wrote:

> I personally do not recognize this council consensus and refuse to respect it..... I am calling on many to ignore it and come up with a consensus outside of this mock council process.

does this mean that if anyone doesn’t like the council consensus and/or those in the council it is all right to ignore it? what about respect? what of tradition? what of spirit?

chuck b:-)

”one of us” <buss...@skat.net> wrote in message news:3F18B20F.AB48F11F@skat.net...

> does this mean that if anyone doesn’t like the council consensus and/or those in the council it is all right to ignore it? what about respect? what of tradition? what of spirit?

I think it means nothing of the sort.

Having participated in more than a few Vision Councils (but no more) it’s easy to imagine to the same old people spouting the same old stuff, and discouraging any new participants but perceptions of seniority, wisdom, bulliness, brashness. “If you can’t agee with someone, intimidate them into agreeing with you”. I know this happens, it happened to me in Idaho. I think maybe some changes are due in our Visionless Council... and I say Visionless since they couldn’t seem to do more than follow the Michigan Vision for a second year. Perhaps the Vision Council could be started on the 1st, so more people could participate. A lot of good folks are eliminated from the process by starting it after the 4th.

You ask of respect, tradition and spirit. The Council is disrespectful. The Council is traditional in that the same heavy hitters seem to always be there. The spirit is biding time....

namaste

Eliyahu Simchah <eli...@rainbowphamily.com> wrote:

> OK, from what is being said tht Visionless Clown Show has not so much reached anything close to a consensus but has opted to continue using the 2003 Michigan consensus and the region for the 2004 event will be California, Nevada and Utah...... with thanxtaking Clown Show focusing on California.

Guess I’ll be seeing y’all in northeren Califunny. Now that we’ve finally had it there and popped that zit, we can have something vaguely resembling an open V.C. for 2005.

-BB

one of us wrote:

> does this mean that if anyone doesn’t like the council consensus and/or those in the council it is all right to ignore it? what about respect? what of tradition? what of spirit?

It is MY right to ignore what I so choose to..... as for RESPECT for the council process there is none and anyone that thinks that those that sat in this mock council respect it they are living in serious denial..... as for tradition some people would know tradition if it hit them in the face..... the spirit listened for the first 2 days of council and left becuz of all the egos and political agendas

Good Morning,

Eliyahu Simchah

Jeff B wrote:

> I think maybe some changes are due in our Visionless Council... and I say Visionless since they couldn’t seem to do more than follow the Michigan Vision for a second year. Perhaps the Vision Council could be started on the 1st, so more people could participate. A lot of good folks are eliminated from the process by starting it after the 4th.

good and well said! i am given to understand that an attempt is going to be made to start vision council on the first. now we need people with vision to attend, and not be intimidated or bullied so they can, without anger or ego, speak to and share their vision with others who care.

chuck b:-)

Eliyahu Simchah wrote:

> as for RESPECT for the council process there is none and anyone that thinks that those that sat in this mock council respect it they are living in serious denial..... as for tradition some people would know tradition if it hit them in the face..... the spirit listened for the first 2 days of council and left becuz of all the egos and political agendas

so how does one get spirit to stay, other than getting rid of all the people?

chuck b:-)

one of us wrote:

> i only ask that you allow others that same right.

I do.... sure to those that do not know me it might seem that I do not

> so how does one get spirit to stay, other than getting rid of all the people?

The spirit will not stay where it is not welcome..... and getting rid of people is not an answer..... people need to grow and learn and that can not be demanded or forced..... like what happened to me this year with my situation with Barry Sacharow..... it is a good lesson that everyone can grow and learn.

Last time I was in Vision Council was in Idaho and I entered that council with an open heart and mind to garner a good sense of where the spirit was leading before lending my voice to any consensus..... and when one was reached I felt as if the spirit was at work..... hell, even Gary stepped out of the circle instead of blocking in Idaho.

I was only able to attend about 1 hour of council in Michigan but from what I saw the egos and agendas were running that show..... and it was shown again by many that were there that this year was no different becuz had it been the consensus would have been for some place other than what was consented to in Michigan

BUT, as is constantly pointed out on this group the consensus reached in any council is only bindig on those that were in that council when consensus was reached..... SO, using that logic neither this council nor the consensus reached in it is binding on anyone accept those that were in it at the time consensus was reached.

SO, to that end I can not and will not respect this consensus and will encourage others that were not present at this council to ignore it completely and that a consensus should be reached in another manner that will reflect the true vision of the spirit.

Good Morning,
Eliyahu Simchah

one of us wrote:

> so how does one get spirit to stay, other than getting rid of all the people?

Ive posted already on this topic, will repeat: a facilitator, chosen for one time only by the group, would really help a lot. What has happened his-torically, is that (for the most part) a male with a loud voice will dominate the process. The solution is for the group to choose someone to facilitate. There’s lots of info re this process out on the internet, and it is being used by the Green Party, so one could check it out at their local meetings.

gaia

the only place Spirit led me was out to the woods to smoke a bowl with him (after i matched him one)...

What “spirit” you be talkin’ about, paleface???

namaste;
bodhi

“one of us” <buss...@skat.net> wrote in message news:3F18B20F.AB48F11F@skat.net...

> does this mean that if anyone doesn’t like the council consensus and/or those in the council it is all right to ignore it? what about respect? what of tradition? what of spirit?

.... Would that be like Garrick Beck, who has no respect for council and does as he personally thinks is correct in everyone’s name?

“rainbow1” <gaia...@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:3F196E81.6000909@adelphia.net...

> Ive posted already on this topic, will repeat: a facilitator, chosen for one time only by the group, would really help a lot. What has happened his-torically, is that (for the most part) a male with a loud voice will dominate the process.

The whole visionless council process just lends itself to creating multiple gatherings across the USof A July 1-7. Some permitted, some not as individuals choose what works best for them, both in travel distance and regulation compliance.

rainbow1 wrote:

i would agree and think that that is a reasonable request. maybe even a team of 2 or more facilitators who are accustomed to working together?

chuck b:-)

“Ruth Kaufman” <x9...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:B%jSa.12316$Mc.872069@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

> does this mean that if anyone doesn’t like the council consensus and/or those in the council it is all right to ignore it? what about respect? what of tradition? what of spirit?

Sister, tradition is rooted in Torah. *Spirit* is your Neshama.

The tribe of Judah calls us back into its mighty fold. We sing a new song - with drums, tamborines, cymbals, harp and shofar.

Celebrate, dance - for the time of our Redemption is near!

Oseh Shalom Bemromav, Hu Yaaseh Shalom Aleinu, Ve-Al KOL Yisrael, ve-Imru -

Amen.

Blessings,
Yechidah

Eliyahu Simchah <eli...@rainbowphamily.com> wrote in message news:<3F18E166...@rainbowphamily.com>...

> > so how does one get spirit to stay, other than getting rid of all the people?
> > The spirit will not stay where it is not welcome.....

I like to think spirit is always there, here, now, and its me that doesn’t listen. But since feeling a real connection to spirit is not too easy for me and often takes a lot of work I can’t say that is true. I guess I just hope it is.

To counter your lies:

from sarah jack...@rock.com

I’ve taken a rather long break from AGR, especially posting but I now feel it important to clarify a few postings from bill. For the next week or so it may appear I am “flaming” but in all actuality I am merely clarifying misguided information.

I sat in vision council this year seeing true vision. It was an amazing movement wherein young folk shared vision and opinion, shared food, shared loving vibrations, shared themselves. Council spoke mainly of the West reaching the same consensus as MI as the vision from MI hadn’t come to fruition due to the signature on the permit. There was no “agenda” whatever that means. There were a few who seemed to state “ my way or the highway” they let go of their views after hearing the true visions. If you weren’t there you missed a great council.

bill wrote in message:

>it’s a new day wrote:

> > It has been my understanding that if you want a gathering in a specific place, then it’s up to you to either scout the area yourself, or scout with others, preferably after a rainbow-type council, then bring the results to the next year’s Vision Council,

I like this idea although it doesn’t happen often. It always helps to have a rough idea of sites when councilling but it isn’t really necessary. For years a beautiful Brother brought maps and pictures from Utah asking us to gather there. It took 10 years to hear that call.

> Having sat in 2 spring clown shows where the Phamily was railroaded into choosing a site already picked for them by either the “sanctioned scouts” or the USFS I would much rather leave such factions out of it

I don’t feel you have any idea what you are stating here. In Utah the “Joe’s Valley” site was no where near as appropriate or suitable as the “Elizabeth Ridge” site. Did you go to Joe’s Valley? I didn’t think so, not anywhere near as much water and very difficult to into. I spoke at length with Turtle about that site, she felt, as well as many others, that Joe’s was not even close to Elizabeth. Scouts did look at Joe’s. You are clearly envious of others knowledge.

> or Bob from Utah and how he was treated...... both of these came to the Council after scouting particular sites and were run out of Council on a rail by the High Holies and “sanctioned scouts”

This is not true. No one was “run out” of council. Again your ignorance of reality has created such an anger inside you you are unable to see clearly. Your perception of truth and bill’s paranoid thought processes are skewed.

> Then you tell me why anyone knowing this would seriously want to attend a Council with these people ???

“these people” = family

> The spirit was directing East this year but that was completely and totally ignored in visionless clown show so that egos and agendas could be placated

Again, this is not true. Bill you were not in council you DO NOT know the direction 95% of those councilling were going. The East was slightly mentioned with one young brother stating he would scout this year and come to council next year with his ideas. The vast majority felt spirit calling to remain west.

The east was far from ignored it was discussed for a couple of hours. If you weren’t there how can you know?

And what “agenda”?

> > Something I don’t understand, is why the Utah Rainbow Family scouts were ignored (to the best of my understanding) this past Spring Council.

Utah family was not ignored. As aforementioned, Joe’s was looked at but Elizabeth was clearly a better site. The forest circus did not choose the site or the area regardless of what some may hint at. Scouting for this gathering began around Labor Day last year. I personally spoke with many who were looking at various sites during that weekend.

> BECUZ THE USFS PICKED THE SITE AT LEAST 3 MONTHS IN ADVANCE AND THEIR SITES WERE NOT IN THE SCOPE OF THE PERMIT PROCESS

untruth

> > There are tracts of forest land in Virginia and also West Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Georgia. But these areas should be explored first by anyone proposing those areas in Vision Council.
'> > The Mid-Atlantic Phamily has scouted and rescouted this area for years and were shut down in visionless clown show by the egos and agendas this year so that those particular egos and agendas could be placated
> The spirit WAS moving this year towards that area

There was one person from the mid Atlantic area in council, a few others who would “like to go there”. I haven’t heard of this scouting but I’m sure you will share the areas you are so sure exist. I personally believe there are sites in W. V. but haven’t seen them so can’t say for sure.

Spirit was clearly in the West.

You weren’t there bill. Again your illusions are over-riding truth.

Please answer to “agenda”

> I will not be attending the 2004 Rainbow Gathering
> BUT, becuz certain egos and agendas have nothing better to do than to sit in a clown show and filibuster until everyone else either leaves or gets sick & tired of fighting with them they get their way and the spirit is ignored

You weren’t there. You don’t know what happened. Seems this is the theme of you small existence.

Go outside, breathe deep, find a life of joy.

> > The reason the “sanctioned scouts” earned that title, is that they are, for the most part, the only ones who actually go out and walk the land,
> > BULLSHIT !!! it’s becuz they want some fancy title and become self appointed leaders

Again your envy and anger is taking over you keyboard.

> > Another way to discover possible sites, and imho the best, is to have someone from a particular area propose a site, someone who is familiar with the area and has camped there, knows the terrain, knows the locals, etc.

Although this is ideal it doesn’t happen often. Suggestions are always helpful.

> You mean like Dwayne from Madison Wisconsin ??? or maybe Bob from Utah ??? the “sanctioned scouts” threatened Dwayne last year..... and this year they said to Bob “Dude, go back down and rescout your site and come back for council and let the people know what you have”...... no sooner was Bob in his car did the High Holies and “sanctioned scouts” call for council and ran the USFS picked site through...... 2 days later Bob and his scouting party came back only to find that they had been DUPED by the “sanctioned scouts”

Unmitigated untruth. Although you may have been at Spring Council you must have been sleeping throughout the majority of actual council. Joe’s was not as good as Elizabeth. It seems to me that choosing the best site over rides choosing the local’s choice.

> > It is also my *personal* opinion, that “local family” should be part of any process leading to a gathering in their area.

Local family can make the Gathering better although often local family isn’t always together enough to really do things which change Gathering. The small things are wonderful. For instance, Arizona. The best supply in years was done by some folks from Arizona who knew the area and markets and had a wonderful grasp of what was needed.

Hope this didn’t run too long.

Love in Light

OK, once again I will ask the question “when was the last time you sat in any type of council for a National Gathering” ??? Oh, that’s right you have not been to a Gathering since Idaho..... SO, becuz of this fact your opinion of what happened this year or last year on the land is invalid and void of any real facts..... SO, when you decide to get off your lazy ass and actually attend a council on the land your words are trivial BS at best

Good Morning,
Eliyahu Simchah

“rainbow1” <gaia...@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:3F196E81.6000909@adelphia.net...

There was an attempt made by two of us in Michigan to facilite the Vision Council. If you were there, perhaps you noticed....

We had draped some twine around the area selected for the council, and made an entrance which opened just behind Info. As it turned out, many simply went under the twine. I personally attempted to explain the process to those who did approach from the “entryway”, and was either ignored, rebuked, or became an object of someone’s anger. Most folks didn’t seem to care, particularly noticible among that group were those I had seen at previous Vision Councils.

I put with it for a couple of hours, then walked away, still not having returned. Until the respect of the council process can be restored there WILL NOT be a true council.

Ruth Kaufman wrote:

> does this mean that if anyone doesn’t like the council consensus and/or those in the council it is all right to ignore it?

Sorta like an open marriage, there is no obligation to follow concensus, yet most do. There are no rules.

> what about respect?

Respect is shown to individuals, not to process, authority, or tradition (although most do respect tradition).

gaia

Ruth Kaufman wrote:

> The whole visionless council process just lends itself to creating multiple gatherings across the USof A July 1-7.

Frankly, and speaking only for myself, I think that’s a *great* idea. It’s difficult to really get to know new friends, when there are 10,000 or so folks milling around you.

gaia

one of us wrote:

> i would agree and think that that is a reasonable request. maybe even a team of 2 or more facilitators who are accustomed to working together?

Yes indeed-a-roonie. You got it goin’ on.

Jeff B wrote:

> We had draped some twine around the area selected for the council, and made an entrance which opened just behind Info. As it turned out, many simply went under the twine. I personally attempted to explain the process to those who did approach from the “entryway”, and was either ignored, rebuked, or became an object of someone’s anger.

It’s possible that you offended simply by attempting to educate. Hippies can be mighty touchy and anti-authoritarian.

What you relate is quite serious however. Would appreciate more in-detail information about what happened.

gaia

In article <3F18A6D2...@rainbowphamily.com>, Eliyahu Simchah says...

Since Rainbow process was ignored and the site announced before Spring Council even began, permit aside, that woulda been the only way I could have decided to continue with Rainbow because then some Vision Council ending up with anything else other than a reiteration of the year before would have been something I could not recognize. See what I’m saying? If you say the Utah thing wasn’t a Rainbow gathering, then how could it have a Vision Council that came up with something different than the last recognized annual gathering? I agree with your view of the gathering in Utah, just not sure you are seeing Vision Council as having any other logical choice. -woodstock-

In article <MH2Sa.24299$EZ2....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>, Jeff B says...

> Having participated in more than a few Vision Councils (but no more) it’s easy to imagine to the same old people spouting the same old stuff, and discouraging any new participants but perceptions of seniority, wisdom, bulliness, brashness. “If you can’t agee with someone, intimidate them into agreeing with you”. I know this happens, it happened to me in Idaho.

Dude, I remember you. Can you tell me if you are speaking of anything I might have said or done? People complain without refering to specifics, and it doesn’t sit well with me since I have participated regularly since ‘97 in VC. It definitely is NOT “the same OLD people” very rarely do you see people from 20 years ago- define what you mean by “old”. Since I’m merely a participant as is anyone else, how would you suggest things change. Take my word on this- if you suggested VC begin on some other day it would take hours or even days to untangle any ensuing arguements on that issue. I could be wrong about that, but I want to hear your insights. -woodstock-

In article <3F18D30D...@skat.net>, one of us says...

> good and well said! i am given to understand that an attempt is going to be made to start vision council on the first.

huh? How did the change in date come about? Is it going to coincide with Rainbow Family council that also begins on the 1st? -woodstock-

Woodstock wrote:

> Since Rainbow process was ignored and the site announced before Spring Council even began, permit aside, that woulda been the only way I could have decided to continue with Rainbow because then some Vision Council ending up with anything else other than a reiteration of the year before would have been something I could not recognize. See what I’m saying? If you say the Utah thing wasn’t a Rainbow gathering, then how could it have a Vision Council that came up with something different than the last recognized annual gathering?

Even more so the reason I can not respect the decision made in this mock council is the fact that what was finnaly decided upon was achieved by the use of Mafioso tactics of beating people up and threatening others so that Cali-fuck-you would get the call..... if others can live with such things then that is fine for them.

Good Morning,
Eliyahu Simchah

“Eliyahu Simchah” <eli...@rainbowphamily.com> wrote in message news:Twy_a.162655$XV.8639483@twister.austin.rr.com...

> Even more so the reason I can not respect the decision made in this mock council is the fact that what was finnaly decided upon was achieved by the use of Mafioso tactics of beating people up and threatening others so that Cali-fuck-you would get the call..... if others can live with such things then that is fine for them.

I have been gathering since 1985, I have walked in on several vision councils to listen and perhaps participate, but I left them in disgust because of the yelling threats, fighting, intimidation, bullying, ect..... same was often true at the few souting councils I attended ( I decided to just provide kitchen support at council gatherings rather than particpating in council) The last gathering I attended was the Montana national, I ran a little tea-house a few hundred yards down from TeePee village on the high trail it was called “Tea Here Now” there was a very large round tarp roof set up for performances, shade, councils ect.... very close to us, So while I never intended to be near vision council it ended up that way (we provided many thist quenching beverages for the councillers) there were 2 fist fights that I personally witnaced and one of them was started by a very respected elder who’s vision many say was very big in creating the Rainbow Gathering (a certain vision of thousands of folks paraying for peace atop a mountain overlooking Strawberry Lake in Colorado in 1972 ( I will not mention a name, those who know who I speak of know who it is) I do not say that I am above getting angry or that anyone else is either, I beleive that this individual is a good man who works hard for the family and believes in what he is doing. Rather this is a editorial on the chaotic nature of vision council and sadly so many other councils within our family..... council needs definate rules of order, facillitators and humility......

I do not attend them, I have my own issues of anger I must work them through, it does not help my quest for personal peace and anger-management to be in an atmosphere that is likely to incite my rage......

George

In article <qj%a.493$7b2...@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com>, teamastergeorge says...

> there were 2 fist fights that I personally witnaced and one of them was started by a very respected elder who’s vision many say was very big in creating the Rainbow Gathering (a certain vision of thousands of folks paraying for peace atop a mountain overlooking Strawberry Lake in Colorado in 1972 ( I will not mention a name, those who know who I speak of know who it is)

Everyone knows about the scuffle in Montana just before VC started that day- it has been posted and discussed right here- when Gary was being rude to Pluncker as he walked by and he made the mistake of callin’ him a “son-of-a-bitch” and Plunker lost it, dropped his tools, and jumped Gary. Plunker did appologize eventually. I don’t know if Gary did, but he did shut up for most of the rest of VC. As for the anger thing, there’s nothing wrong with anger in and of itself IMHO but the thing is to use the energy wisely, which takes alot of practice. I ought to know ‘cause I’ve been known to be a hot-head in the past especially. Now I actually look for the next thing to piss me off just so I can practice focusing that anger on something useful. -woodstock--

Woodstock <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message

> As for the anger thing, there’s nothing wrong with anger in and of itself IMHO but the thing is to use the energy wisely, which takes alot of practice. I ought to know ‘cause I’ve been known to be a hot-head in the past especially. Now I actually look for the next thing to piss me off just so I can practice focusing that anger on something useful. -woodstock-

anger in and of it self IS BIG a waste energy it can help alot to rember the real you can not get angery that it is something other than the real you that is angery

I should know I have ben fighting over owernship of my self with the white slave trade all of my life and there main thing is to do shit to piss me off as if that will turn me in to someone’s battered wife even in the deepest rage if one can rember it is something else that is in reged then the anger gose awa

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